Jason, in continuing our discussion on the Penn article (although the article is just a facade for the real discussion on the why? of life)… I wanted to discuss some of your thoughts…
go here for a history of this discussion August 1st blog
“Believing there’s no God means I can’t really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That’s good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.” - Penn
“The sins committed against your fellow man aren’t forgivable by asking God to forgive you. Without God to turn to, you are left with forgiveness only being granted by those you sinned against. And that forgiveness may only be granted by kindness (you making amends to the person you sinned against and in their kindness they would forgive you) or by faulty memories (that enough time has passed that the bearer of your transgression no longer feels the pain or has forgotten about enough so as to forgive you) And knowing that your only salvation comes at the hands of those you sinned against rather than a God who may grant mercy upon you by saying a remorseful prayer, that might make you more inclined to make sure you treat people right when dealing with them. No where does he assert that happiness is attained through treating people kindly.” - Jason
Touche’. Thank you for your reproof and subsequent interpretation. I understand his statement much better, after your discourse. This is a weighty opinion. One that isn’t totally foreign to Christianity, but does lead to a different understanding albeit the same outcome/action.
That being the action of loving one’s neighbor/enemy as oneself. For kindness is an action of love, and forgiveness can only be done in the spirit of love, or else it is just duty. And one can come to the conclusion that duty can never fully encapsulate passionate commitment. As a soldier must fulfill his duty, whether or not he approves of it, and an employee must be dutiful to her employer or suffer the consequence. So true love must be a combination of duty and passionate commitment, because as we commit to love we must (at times) perform the duty of kindness.
“but believing in humanity and that our actions might be better served with that fundamental idea than putting faith in an omnipotent, omniscient being that will guide us to a better life and society (to date still hasn’t done so, in fact the results have been quite contrary).” - Jason
Nowhere does Jesus say that “putting faith in an omnipotent, omniscient being” “will guide us to a better life and society.” He speaks rather contrary words, that the goal is not perfection on earth, but perfection living in our hearts, that the “kingdom of God will rule in our hearts.” This world will continue to be run by the imperfect, by the finite, and by the “powers of this dark age.” The goal of a follower of Christ should not be to have Godly politics, communities, movies, music, et cetera. The goal should be persuasion – to persuade someone that this world is imperfect, finite and fading… and only through the rule of God in our hearts can we have a hope for a future not yet known, a future not yet realized.
Is this the eternal promise – glorious perfection or heaven? Some may call it that, Jesus called it a place where we are the adopted sons and daughters of God, heirs to a glorious inheritance, promised a seat at the right hand of God. Heaven is just a term for the place of God, a finite construct for an infinite being, to help us with the conception of what is to come, which we will never be able to understand until we enter into it.
Many, I fear have been sold a faulty gospel. In this modern age of reason we have made the Gospel message a product to be sold with the promise of a fix-all. The bible is touted as a guidebook, playbook, cure-all, magic pill, that must be read every morning at 5:30 (for only the early risers are disciplined enough to be blessed by the words of the bible). The bible is nothing more than a collection of stories. The inerrant gospel message is found inherently in the bible. That is – when we read the scriptures we find too many coincidences, too many prophecies, and too many confirming stories to deny the accuracy of the events, though the exact details of events and words may be contradictory – the message is the same. The Messiah was prophesied, the messiah was born, the boy became a man, the man invested into 12 men (one of which betrayed him), the Christ was crucified, then raised from the dead, and ascended into heaven after ministering to his disciples…
His story is told by 4 of his closest friends, and the last time I was with four friends noone could tell the same story exactly… someone always adds detail or forgets sequences, but the point of the story is always told. So it is the same with the Gospels, and then the rest of the New Testament includes letters from the apostles to the church or to each other – meant for the encouragement, reproof, and instruction of the followers of Christ’s teachings.
So yes, the church has done a terrible job of representing the gospel message, of living a life that is worthy of the calling… For that I am sorry. I am sorry that we have hurt, that we have conquered, persecuted, tortured, made slaves, and any other atrocity… in the name of God. That is not the name of the God I serve… nor is it a true representation of the hope that is in my heart for humanity, for our nation, and for my community. Let’s continue this discussion as I am continually challenged and encouraged by your views and opinions!
No Comments on "in response…"
Welcome back!
Howdy Sam. Sorry to just drop in like this, but I feel compelled to speak (which doesn’t happen very often).
Maybe it’s difficult to understand Penn’s statement on forgiveness because forgiveness doesn’t make much sense if there is no God. If there is no God, no afterlife, and nothing but the present natural world, then Penn and all the rest of us are just going to die anyway and that’s it. Why do we need to be forgiven? Salvation doesn’t mean anything if there is no righteous being to be saved from and no greater world to enter into.
But if there is a God, forgiveness gives us hope “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”